Curse

Blackhearted · Feb 01, 2009, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by elpedro

So there we have it, Guild Wars 2 is at a playable stage, has over 200 people working on it and is currently in development - pretty much what most people would have thought anyway.

So anyone else coming here, spreading lies about "Vaporware" please gtfo this forum as that is officially trolling now. This is going to be a great thread to look back on - hopefully now we can keep the whiners, disbelievers and general trolls quiet.

Thanks again Regina.

The way i see it, her post is useless unless it contains any relevant content to back it up the claims that it does exist. Especially since "200 people" and near two years is more than enough time to have atleast one thing "polished" enough to show.

- No personal attacks.
- Sun Fired Blank

elpedro · Feb 01, 2009, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhearted

The way i see it, her post is useless unless it contains any relevant content to back it up the claims that it does exist. Especially since "200 people" and near two years is more than enough time to have atleast one thing "polished" enough to show.

You have no idea how long they need to 'polish' the game to level they are satisfied with, thus assuming and making accusations once again; unjustified and not backed up of course.

Why is her post not useless? Maybe because she is employed by ArenaNet to act as a bridge between the devs and us; the players. Oh yeah, that's it Community Manager.

So to sum up. You do not know me, our proof is the fact Regina works for ArenaNet and isn't paid to tell lies and you have no idea how long the team working on the game needs.

Highlander Of Alba · Feb 01, 2009, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Lets look at it closer as some seem to miss out

Anet as a part of NCsoft you have to look at big picture

Aion...release in EU/NA later on in the year

Blade and Soul another game under the umberella being developed

Guild Wars 2....being developed

That is how its placed 3rd in line....They will release some information not only when its polished more but, when the time is right for the marketplace

If they released any info just now by looking at the forurms it would be a clamour to disect what anyone says to suit there own agenda

Its like the case of Doubting Thomas unless he/she sees it then they disbelive

thats why we are all individuals .the forum is small in comparison so for them to satisfy a few most unlikley. So paitence is a virtue

Shadowmoon · Feb 01, 2009, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by elpedro

... our proof is the fact Regina works for ArenaNet and isn't paid to tell lies and you have no idea how long the team working on the game needs.

She is paid to give a positive spin on the situation, and fanboyism isn't going to change that fact and other facts to this situation. Claiming that there isn't another side when NOTHING new has come out is premature, claiming everyone who disagrees with you is a troll is immature.

elpedro · Feb 01, 2009, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmoon

She is paid to give a positive spin on the situation, and fanboyism isn't going to change that fact and other facts to this situation. Claiming that there isn't another side when NOTHING new has come out is premature, claiming everyone who disagrees with you is a troll is immature.

There's no fanboyism about it, although this is a fansite so as to why people like you are here I have no idea.

Fine, Regina completely made up everything in that post, GW2 is NOT in development, it won't be released, GW2 is vaporware and anyone who thinks otherwise is incorrect.

Mark my words, you will look the fool when the game is released. And so what if I'm sticking up for GW and being the fan. Everything is weighted in the direction I believe in and the majority of people here would happily back up me over you in this situation.

Why are you even posting here? What good are you trying to achieve? Do you honestly believe GW2 is fiction? And really, is branding someone a troll who is going against everything being said immature on forum such as this? You don't register on a GW forum then call staff liers and doubt the credibility of what they say!

Apollo Smile · Feb 01, 2009, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Maybe its just where I work, but when my company tells a customer of our current projects, they don't tend to call me a liar. This thread will be hilarious once ArenaNet finally shows their cards. Or will the trolls pretend it never existed?

*My new troll friend has once again decided to harrass me in game about Guild Wars 2. Again, he made a direct reference to this thread. I'm sorry, but whoever it is in here you have officially been reported. You are a coward to bother me in game under false names, instead of right here for all to see.

Fril Estelin · Feb 01, 2009, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmoon

NOTHING new has come out

Here lies your problem: you don't accept the pieces of evidence and then claim people who believe Regina's words are fanbois. Pieces of evidence are: a deal to publish 3 books, Umbra being licensed, 200 people employed (which means they've hired quite a lot and will probably continue to, if they're successful) some of which help the GW1 Live Team from time to time, Jeff Strain and Mike O'brien moving to fund NCwest, Regina and top NCsoft executives having seen (and played for Regina) GW2 actually running. I agree that these are not "conclusive" pieces of evidence in any way, but I think it's a big bet to compare this stuff to DNF/SC:Ghost and then claim vaporwar-isation (unless you're here to win the academic argument of "what's the best term to describe the current situation"). All information so far point to GW2 being good and well, but not polished enough (I bet that this high-level of polish goes hand in hand with the long silence they're forced themselves to have) and maybe there's a deal with NCsoft not to hamper the launch of other games.

People can make all the parallels they want, but Anet is neither 3D Realms (DNF) nor Blizzard Activition. Expectations have been growing without much stop for the last 2 years, players get angrier and angrier whatever we or Anet says, not a word will appease the guys that expect it so much that they would actually troll to push Anet to release any single piece of information about GW2 (which, as said before, will be dissected to the very last comma until the anger is back again and people ask for even more, it's an endless circle). While I understand why people would "feel" that they need re-assurance, there's no risk on our side, it's Anet and NCwest taking the risk and possibly loosing customers and money. I believe they're very professional and they know how to deal with this and make a concious decision on how best to get people's attention. A lot of people don't like it because they're almost ready to click on the "Jump" button to move their stuff from GW1/HoM to GW2 and have this fresh, new content.

Get over it, play what you like in GW1 or quit, don't get stuck on something that you can leave aside for a while and then get back to. Move on if it's the best thing for you, and then come back in time if that suits you. Or else this thread (and Guru with its deluge of trolls) is just going to be an excuse to have arguments about "what might", while none of us really completely know what's going on (we're not stupid and no one is saying that GW2 will hit the shelves, we believe it will but admit it may not). In other words, this discussion is completely futile and counter-productive, if it wasn't there, a few people may not have thought about it, may not have had any particular expectations and get angry about "silly" arguments.

Patience is, indeed, a virtue.

DreamWind · Feb 01, 2009, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by elpedro

Mark my words, you will look the fool when the game is released. And so what if I'm sticking up for GW and being the fan. Everything is weighted in the direction I believe in and the majority of people here would happily back up me over you in this situation.

No...when the game is released we will look back and say "wow that big secretive buildup was only for THIS??"

Quote:

Originally Posted by elpedro

You don't register on a GW forum then call staff liers and doubt the credibility of what they say!

You obviously don't have experience with this company.

Shadowmoon · Feb 01, 2009, 10:45 PM // 22:45

And I list reasons why I think the game may be running into major problems that may halt it getting released that you are choose to ignore. The Beta has be postpone indefinitely, they refuse to even release concept art, the economy is turning south at the same time the parent company is financially bleeding (TR anyone?), and there no idea when information will come. Of course they made a book deal, but do you have an idea when they are planning on being published? So you don't want Anet to be compared to other companies, but then compare development time of other games when people start asking why gw2 isn't out yet. Seem like having your cake and eating it too.
Yet once Regina posted a reiteration of the old song "I've seen gw2 and played it", people claimed victory that game going to be released, the vaporware comments are void. Sorry but until some of Gaile's 08 resolutions start happening, I'm going to be skeptical.

Fril Estelin · Feb 01, 2009, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmoon

reasons why I think the game may be running into major problems

Ok, if you want to get hypothetical arguments, let's imagine what might explain your "reasons":

Quote:

The Beta has be postpone indefinitely

They may have chosen not to say too much about how well advanced they are so that other competitors may nail them, or hamper Aion's release in EU/USA.

Quote:

they refuse to even release concept art

They may not want to reveal stuff on the world, or that their graphical ideas be stolen.

Quote:

the economy is turning south at the same time the parent company is financially bleeding (TR anyone?)

They have lots of resources, with 5,5million units sold and potentially server costs under control. Dropping TR may be a good thing financially for them, if they were bleeding from it before it was closed.

(even more hypothetical stuff: Anet has such an awesome graphics engine that they started licensing it...)

Quote:

So you don't want Anet to be compared to other companies, but then compare development time of other games when people start asking why gw2 isn't out yet. Seem like having your cake and eating it too.

Don't think I am. My point was to say that Anet and GW are in a niche market, given its no-monthly-fee. They may have brought so much money to NCsoft that they were granted a free pass to take as much time as needed to finish/polish GW2, thus relaxing the commercial pressure that traditionally forces companies to release stuff asap in the gaming industry.

(note: I hope at this point it's clear how hypothetical stuff is non-sense, a lot of "might", "may" and "possible", all with the subject "I think that")

Quote:

Yet once Regina posted a reiteration of the old song "I've seen gw2 and played it", people claimed victory that game going to be released, the vaporware comments are void. Sorry but until some of Gaile's 08 resolutions start happening, I'm going to be skeptical.

I much prefer Regina's song (despite all the comments I've made about her before) to yours, or the one from anyone here. We're random singletons with little knowledge of what's going on at Bellevue Way. And even if she's CR/M and you may want to invoke the "conflict of interest" card, she's shown that she can be trusted. And as I said before, the 200+ Anet employees' future rely on a successful GW2, so I'm sure they didn't take the decision to not release information lightly, since the consequences for them could be disastrous (while we'll still be here, playing something else).

Funnily, some claimed that the people that trusted the pieces of evidence relied on words that have no weight. Yet all I see here is more words, from players who know very little (unless you're actually working in the gaming industry?).

shoyon456 · Feb 01, 2009, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Lets now destroy your "reasons" for your blindness:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

They may have chosen not to say too much about how well advanced they are so that other competitors may nail them, or hamper Aion's release in EU/USA..

There is a difference between not saying how far a long they are, and indefinitely putting off a PLANNED '08 BETA. Yes they gave their reason and that is fine, they want it to look good. However in most professional worlds timelines for business plans are much more secure and safe. The only reason not to be referring to a strict business problem are development problems. Even if they are small, they are likely experiencing some.

NCSoft has been quoted as saying they do not tell Anet or any other of its game producers how/when they should advertise for their game. Anet may be keeping quiet, but it is their choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

They may not want to reveal stuff on the world, or that their graphical ideas be stolen..

Oh yes, because so much can be stolen from concept art? Yes, maybe screenshots can, but you fail if you think anything more than theories can be grasped from concept art. Look at concept art from all GW campaigns and eotn, alot of it is MUCH different in game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

They have lots of resources, with 5,5million units sold and potentially server costs under control. Dropping TR may be a good thing financially for them, if they were bleeding from it before it was closed..

NCSoft is bleeding. GW has sold alot but guess what? NO MONTHLY. The only reliable thing they have as I see it as Lineage. NCSoft has resources, but is a baby compared to other major players.

GW2 will in all likelyhood come out. But whatever anet is pulling here, alot of people do not like, and it might bode badly for the game. It is not absurd to think the game might be scrapped. NCSoft could easily go on under Aion and its various other upcomming games. It doesn't matter if Regina played the game, because alot of things can change very quickly with games. Until anything is officially announced, everyone should be skeptical.

-Sonata- · Feb 02, 2009, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

There is a difference between not saying how far a long they are, and indefinitely putting off a PLANNED '08 BETA. Yes they gave their reason and that is fine, they want it to look good.

Just additions I'd like to make based on these.

It was either in this thread, or another, where I stated that smart business strategy (responsible) is releasing information when you're absolutely sure you can deliver on it because that will be the expectation the customers demand. If there is any doubt whatsoever that you can't meet those expectations - don't say a word.

A lot of people keep referencing Gaile and her "expect a beta in 2008" (paraphrase). This is the prime example of why smart companies keep their mouths shut about things until they can do what they said they would do. The moment Gaile said what she did, either on her own accord, or by instruction of someone else (which is what I believe was the case), that was the bar of expectations the customers (us) expected. Even though in the back of our minds we knew it wasn't written in stone, it's what the majority expected to happen no matter what the circumstance.

If anyone in the development team knew that there was a reasonable chance beta would not happen in '08; In other words jumping the gun just to keep the hounds "calm-submissive", the transfer of information should have been halted right away and it looks like it was. Meaning who ever was/is leading this project stands up to everyone and says, "Everyone keep your mouths shut from here on out, unless I tell you specifically".

It wasn't the case though, was it? Or at least not until after Gaile's statement.

Are people going to infer that Gaile's statement was a smart business decision on behalf of Anet? Considering the constant anger about it I argue that saying something you can't keep your word on was a very bad business decision. It must have been if people here are angered about the delay.

Following this lead, what happens if tomorrow we get a bunch on information on the game, be it visual, or written details, and 3 months down the road we're informed half of that information has been changed, promises revoked, ideas scrapped, areas over-hauled, tweeks made and new delays added? Is this community going to be as understanding as they were with Gaile? I somehow doubt that.

Now, I'm not saying that when they do show us, or tell us something, that I don't expect some minor alterations. However, a complete turn around only means that what they did show me, or told me, was worthless and a waste of time for both parties.

This is why keeping hush on things is smart, not bad, until you're 95%-100% certain you can deliver on that information. It prevents Anet from having to go back on it's word. This is something a lot around here seem to dispise. Yet some are willing to greatly risk that for a taste of eye-candy.

I know, I know - Concept art isn't much to ask for. Or..is it? The determined cynics are easily predictable.

"So what. Concept Art. Whoopdeedo. How do I know that wasn't drawn 7 years ago? Or even if it is gw2 art, that doesn't mean they went ahead with it!"

I think you and I both know, no matter what angle of this debate we hold, someone, somewhere, would post a similar remark to "supposive GW2 concept art". The rumor mills would multiply and the conspiracy writers would find new fuel for the fire.

Now from a gamers perspective we gain a lot. From a developers perspective, not so much. Quiet a few of the outspoken, but in the process raise the desire for more answers to more questions, more demands to answer those questions, more reasons to add pressure...

Quote:

However in most professional worlds timelines for business plans are much more secure and safe.

And they're also under risk analysis, which at any time, even in the most professional and highly successful companies are subjected to delays based on any number of factors within the risk analysis. As the saying goes, "S*** Happens" and it happens to the professionals as well no matter how well drawn and secure your project plan is outlined.

Let's assume for a moment Anet did run into a problem along the way. A moderate to severe problem. Let's say in our imperfect world a data drive got totally wiped and the backup along with it that housed a major portion of coding. It's something unforseen, or at least in the low percentile of "risk" during development, but it ended up happening. Maybe it wasn't an "end-of-the-word" problem, but it ranked up there in the things you really don't want happening. Think like driving a car. Sure, you consider a flat tire is a real possibility and you plan for it, but your entire wheel falling off? That's very rare. It happens, but rare..and if it does..it's a bigger fix than the flat.

Let's assume for a moment that this event was the cause for the delay of a 'planned '08 beta'. There's two choices immediate to Anet that have to be decided upon from contingency plans:

1) Continue as per your project timeline states, while sacrificing any quality this error has caused ,so you can keep your original timeline in tact. Staying on scheduale is priority number one no matter what state the product is in.

2) Identify the error, the cause, and the fix. Review your data, including your risk analysis, and make adjustments to your plan based on your forecasted material. This may include budget adjustments to reallocate resources, and expanding your timeline of completion by delaying other areas of development in order to prevent the error from occuring again. The highest quality of product is priority number one.

Even if this is the case (and noone really knows. We're just playing pretend here) and Anet suffered a setback, does telling us, or not, change the fact there has been, in fact, a delay? No. So there's no real motivation to explain such and truthfully no obligation to explain it to the public. In fact, by keeping quiet, not announcing time frames (2008 planned beta), they avoid the backlash that comes with possible delays. As another saying goes, "Do it right, or don't do it at all".

If people here are unhappy with the way Anet is doing things then that is a personal issue brought on by themselves based on the idea that gaming companies must provide eye candy xNumber of times in ySpan of time. If Blizzard does it, so must Anet? If Turbine did it, so must Anet? If FunCom did it, so must Anet? Sometimes doing things a bit different, or out-of-the-box, pays off.

Turbine was ripped, rather brutally by some "Professionals", for releasing Mines of Moria against Litch King. The pessimist would think of it as the worst marketing plan ever conceieved. The optimist saw opportunity. That opportunity was knowing that web sites, especially gaming ones, would be flooded with audiences about Litch King. They would be current WoW players, perhaps old ones who left and curious about the new expansion. Maybe players interested in playing for the first time, or gamers looking for something new. Banners would be everywhere with WoW and they were. So why not capitalize on the attention?

Turbine putting MoM on target with WotLK, everywhere I went, I saw a LotRO advert, or article, right beside WoTLK. It worked for Turbine, despite the critics rulebooks because Blizzard didn't have sole posession of the limelight. It was clever, typically unheard of, and risky, but it worked like a charm. Anyways, I went off track there....

Each game is different in development time. Each company under different amounts of resources. I don't think anyone believes otherwise. None of us can say for absolute certain what Anet has in available resources; Financial, exact manpower per development area, equip, testing phases, and so on. What we do know is it's less than Blizzard, but more than some start-up. I think that's a fair statement.

We can't expect Anet to deliver a timetable based on Blizzard's output. We also shouldn't expect a significant resource shortfall a start-up would run into that would cause a full stop to development. Each one of these exaggerates realistic expectations. Im not saying it isn't out of the realm of possibility, either way on this spectrum, but that each end of such spectrum is the extreme.

I will speak again, from my personal feeling and only for myself: I don't want Anet to bait me with pretty pictures and promises they can't keep in the FunCom style of gaming (yes, I went there). I don't want another broken beta time frame promise because someone, somewhere, knew it there was a reasonable chance it might not be ready...but they just had to throw the hounds a chew toy.

Tell me something when you can live up to those words - show me something when that's what I will see. If you can't, keep quiet and keep working until you can and when you can keep your word.

Sorry for the semi-novel here. While most people I know are off to Superbowl parties (something I could care less about) I had to find something to do to kill some time

Take care.

Chabby · Feb 02, 2009, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Don't you see that most of you have been debating almost 17 pages for a "Yes" or a "No"?

There is no conspiracy, no lies... Regina said that they were working on the game. Except if you bring up a proof, you can't state what was said as a lie.

I don't see the point of arguing forever about that when whatever you say won't change anything... Really. :-/

It's not like Arenanet would suddenly change their choice because somebody is shouting.

I believe what Regina said, because it's the most well placed person here to tell us the state of the project. I'd rather believe someone from Arenanet than someone who keep shouting "They're lying! Regina works for Anet, so she/he has to tell us positive facts!!!".

PS : Don't come up with something like "You don't know how it works". I do, and it's the second time that I live something like that about a game on a forum, where somebody that works for a company tell us "It's fine up there, don't worry"... And guess what? The first time, that person was almost right, because the game was rushed in the end. Plus, the game was delayed for three months and many promised things didn't make it in the final product.
But here, Arenanet has all the time they need to polish the game, so I don't worry. I'd rather see something ready than something not finished because some people can't wait...

draxynnic · Feb 02, 2009, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Something else to remember regarding the mythical 2008 beta:

In the past, Blizzard has had time blowout by a lot with previous games. Unlike DNF, of course, such projects either came out the door sooner or later or got cancelled - but both Diablo 2 and Warcraft 3 were released years past their initially announced release dates. Afterwards, they learned their lesson and just stopped giving dates they weren't sure of (at least within a one-month tolerance, if you didn't happen to live in Australia).

The late 2008 beta certainly appears to have been a gaff, but it's hardly an unprecedented one, and certainly not a good basis for a conspiracy theory.

PS: Good move, Apollo. They may have hidden their identity, but at the very least ANet can deny them the disposable account that they were using. And if the troll was really careless and used an account they actually cared about...

Society · Feb 02, 2009, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Quote:

Regina said that they were working on the game. Except if you bring up a proof, you can't state what was said as a lie.

You are right. Yes, we can't proof if Regina's words was a lie.
We also can't proof if her words was a truth.
...So it just doesn't changed anything. Ever.
Official statement ? Ha-ha. One of conclusions I've made from my course of management: managers doesn't need to be honest, they needs to be convincing. Knowing this, I'm very sceptical about such official staments.

Just a sample: company being adjudged for economical crime (hiding part of their incomes to reduce taxes f.e.). Would you, being a judge on that court, just belive to all their official statements ? Why not ?
Another smaple: someone owes you. Would you belive to every excuse to translate payment date further, even if you unable to prove that it's lie ? Why not ?

Lord Sojar · Feb 02, 2009, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Oh, am I going to have a big fat "I told you so" cookie to shove into some of your faces soon. OH HOO HOO HOOO!

GW2 = not vaporware.

Society · Feb 02, 2009, 12:11 PM // 12:11

...BTW, talking about samples.... Congratulate me, I'm just recalled another GW2-like project. It's called "Nuclear BASIC": http://www.nuclearglory.com/php-bin/...forum.php?id=7
This is awesome, exciting and very featured language... Yes-yes ! Some people even pre-ordered it. So, it's was in-development, close to release with only some thing things to be polished... for more then 2 years (people really started to worry at january of 2007). Well, at least there was some techdemos, but no even open beta or some significant code snippets. Oh, and no refunds: developer just keep saying that he is short on money now. Well, it was offical statements, of course... Better at some points, worse at another, that project was just another pretty sample of vaporware. Hey, people, are you want to preorder it ? Developers officialy said on official site that it would be very kool and outstanding thing that you can get with discount ! Heh ? Why not 0_0 ?

Fril Estelin · Feb 02, 2009, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Society

people really started to worry at january of 2007

So you're worried and coming here to ask Anet to fix your problem? Given than Regina is aware of that and has relayed this feeling from a part of the GW community, and the devs/management said (again) "no", more "I'm worried about GW2" or "GW2 is vaporware" is very unlikely to change anything, apart from waisting your time of course.

As the saying goes "You can't change the past, but you can ruin the present by worrying about the future".

Society · Feb 02, 2009, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Problem ? How can I have problems with unexisting thing ?
Well... About one year ago I've really asked (on another forum) if Guild Wars 2 is still happening (just like http://www.nuclearglory.com/php-bin/...925&forum_id=7)... But not anymore. Especially after Regina's stament, where she said that everything is awesome. I just know how things is going with GW2, NB, Last_Eden (http://forum.df2.ru/index.php?showtopic=11583) and other obivious vaporware. I've just seen to musch of it (especially at summer vacations, when schoolboy developers gets menustration and especially active) to generalize it's common signs and properties.

Fril Estelin · Feb 02, 2009, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Society

I've just seen to musch of it (especially at summer vacations, when schoolboy developers gets menustration and especially active) to generalize it's common signs and properties.

We've seen more trolls inventing false theories, showing false "facts" and photoshopping pics for the sake of defaming Anet, than you've seen "vaporware". So, statistically, Regina's word weights much, much heavier than the ones of lambdas like you and me. It's not a guarantee that the game will be out, but that it exists and is kept in a well-guarded safebox whose key was cut in three and put inside the mouth of Jeff Strain, Pat Wyatt and Mike O’Brien

.